Monday, November 26, 2012

Annette Sykes on Facebook "Maori rights cant be ignored"

Annette Sykes
Hit or miss... Maori rights cant be ignored
Crown's 'king hit'
www.stuff.co.nz
Maori moves to block state asset sales look set to fail if the Government can convince the High Court that ministers are simply implementing the will of Parliament.
Like · · Share · 8 hours ago ·

    26 people like this.
    3 shares
    Sandra Mclean well of course they a implementing the will oF parliament THEY ARE NOT HOWEVER IMPLEMENTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE !
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    · 8 hours ago
    Jakh Heremia the will of the people won't be considered if the TPPA is signed
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    · 8 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Hmmm, wasn't Parliament voted in BY THE PEOPLE? Shouldn't this grievance be addressed at the polling box rather than at Court?
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    · 7 hours ago
    Kim Holloway I fear this judge has already made up his mind
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    · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown who pays the judge's salary?
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    · 7 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey One million did not vote, the will of the people is broken and hope is lost
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Anastasia Henare Can the people call for an early election. If the politicians can call for a "no confidence" vote - what about the people? Get hoha, these people promise so much, start off with a hiss and a roar and then find out they don't need to listen after a couple of years getting the perks. The double edged sword rearing its ugly head to suit the government. Sell, sell, sell - its okay we can take more from the Maori.
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Well, if you get a low voter turnout then fix that problem by engaging with those people. You can;'t just presume they didn't vote because they didn't like what is going on. Maybe they didn't vote because they are perfectly happy with what is going on???
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Judges are completely independent in NZ with effectively lifetime appointments. Their budget is not subject to parliamentary oversight and intrusion, and so who pays a judge is irrelevant. We have many, many examples where judges make orders against Governments, even sitting Prime Ministers (Fitzgerald versus Muldoon), and so the insinuation that this judge does anything other than his job, is sad.
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    · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown @ jens mueller - thanks for the clarification - I am afraid my synical mind was working overtime...
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    · 7 hours ago
    Jakh Heremia the court may rule, but the Government decides - if the TPPA is signed, just say GOODBYE!
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Say Good Bye to what? The TPPA has incredible riches attached for our exporters which will flow through our communities as well as the current Fonterra payouts already do...
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown I did not vote and I do not vote because I do not believe any of the scum in the house are worth voting for. I love NZ/A - and I love the diverse people of NZ/A but I hate the government and I hate politicians. I dont live in NZ/A because of them.
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Well, if you don't buy a ticket to the show, you can't really bitch about it then, can you?
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Jakh Heremia RICHES, YOU WERE QUICK TO POINT OUT - riches for who? Fonterra is against this TPPA
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    · 7 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Most who didnt vote were poor, english second language, Maori and Pacifika youth, unemployed and have therefore lost hope and a sense of any belonging to the electoral process and no matter how hard you try, you cant make them believe in a system that has screwed them over so much they have given up hence the high suicide rate and the high rate of Maori leaving for Oz
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    · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown @ Jens Mueller - I do not agree with you at all. You are saying I should buy a ticket for a show I already know is shit, NO THANKS
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    · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Ricjes for those in this country who work their butts off to get ahead, to employ others and to create incomes for their companies (the vast majority of which flows into the communities through taxes and spending)...
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    · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller No, what I am saying is, that if you do not participate in the political system (hard to do for you not living here and being a bystander) you cannot critizise it because you did not do your part to change it.
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    · 7 hours ago
    Jakh Heremia Where is the alternative - LABOUR - yes men (eventually) MAORI PARTY - dysfunctional GREEN PARTY - sitting on the fence
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    · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Fonterra is hugely interested in access to the North American markets for their dairy products. Currently agricultural subsidies keep us out of this market which by itself is worth more than $1.6 Billion a year...
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown @ Huhana Hickey - what you have said is true. But there are people like me who are Uni educated etc and who have also become disolussioned with NZ/A politics and politicians.
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    · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller The only way forward is to do what the Maori party is already doing, and that is to work constructively with a National Government that so far has steered the country to a very very soft landing, when compared to most other OECD countries.
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Well, if you are uni-educated, then maybe you could get the spelling of complicated words correctly!
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown @ Jens Mueller - That doesnt help me. (I stopped voting many years ago when I was still living in NZ/A) Why should I vote for something that I do not want. My options are 1 pile shit or another pile of shit - again No thanks
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    · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown @ Jens Mueller - No disrespect to you but if spelling is your issue - We have nothing more to say to each other.
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    · 7 hours ago
    Jens Mueller I just picked up on your self-grandizing comment of being uni-educated. Don't open up doors if you don't want people to walk through...
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown ps have you heard of dyslexia. And you missed the point about being Uni educated
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown and typos
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown my point was that even some educated people have lost hope...
    Like · Reply · 7 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown oh, and I am sorry if it came accross as 'self-grandizing' it was not the intention.
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Carrie Stoddart The TPPA is not a general free trade agreement only a very small part of the agreement relates to trade. It has a meta-regulatory framework designed to benefit corporations and limit the rights of citizens in the host state.
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    · 6 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Well, having seen the original and currently negotiated text of the TPPA, this isn't quite an accurate statement. Many countries, not just NZ, have issues with what the US corporates wish to see as part of the final TPPA, and it is pretty clear that they are not getting all they want, and we will not be getting all we want. That's the way multi-country agreements are developed.
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    · 6 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Well, Warrick, losing hope is not an acceptable excuse for not taking up the offered chance to make the system work better for you and others, who might share your views. Bystander cheap shots are not helpful. You could use your considerable energy to help bring about a change, so rather than growing a wish bone, grow a back bone!
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown no comment. I am not going to resort to cheap abuse.
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    · 6 hours ago
    Jens Mueller I am never cheap!
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Kim Holloway Talk is cheap
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    · 6 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown I really dont want to get ito a tit for tat argument but you are telling me I should vote for somebody I dont want.
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    · 6 hours ago
    Carrie Stoddart well Jens, if you've seen the original and the currently negotiated text that must mean you're at the table and have a vested interest in its implementation, since the deal is being done in private and the rest of us aren't allowed to know the trade offs until 4 years after its been signed.
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    · 6 hours ago via mobile
    Kane Davis This country is Maori Land, sovereign nation , any decisions made that affect effect this country needs to go through and be passed or not by Maori.
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Kane Davis Trust me , Maori and some other non Maori have this countries best interests at heart.
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Kane Davis Can't eat money.
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    · 6 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Well, that certainly is not the law of the land now, but if you wish to change that, there is a political process to do so.
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    Carrie Stoddart Oh I see, Jens is Director of Pharmac. John Key has said no TPPA unless Pharmac included.
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    · 6 hours ago via mobile
    Kane Davis hahaha , says who?... whos political process?
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Kane Davis everyone has different ways to get the same thing done .
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Look, you need to deal with these issues in a reality, not in a dream world.
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Kane Davis Maori aint a dream , thats your problem.
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Jens Mueller You are confusing the outcome you wish to see with the process to get there. Every kid wants to fly, but you don't jump off a cliff, you take flying lessons...
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Kane Davis This country was stolen by thieves, and is currently being governed by them . How is that confusing?
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Not all Maori seem to believe this, as they are quite successfully participating in the political arena, so as entitled you are to your opinion, it seems to be one of a minority.
    Like · Reply · 6 hours ago
    Kane Davis Just like all things precious , we are.
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Robertdavid Burnett JENS THE NAME IS IT SOUTH AFRICAN......WONDERING...
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    · 5 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey I have a PhD Warwick so highly qualified but unemplyed as my disabilities exclude me from most employers who have attitudes against us
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    · 5 hours ago
    Jens Mueller No, Jens is a nordic name.
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Huhana, are you saying employers have an attitude against Maori, or against people with disabilities, or both?
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Kane Davis Haha , this guy! fully rascist.
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Jens Mueller No, it's a valid question.
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    Kane Davis What ever
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Kane Davis I like you Jens, you remind of all the racist Kids i grew up with . You really are funny.
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    Huhana Hickey I was advised by a member of the business round table they would never employ both so yes I a, saying both, my experience since receiving my PhD has been that its either because I am Maori or because of my disabilities or both and no not directly its the indirect discrimination that is obvious the rest is subtle
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey its done in other ways such as saying thanks but. No thanks
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Ok, that would indeed be sad. I know many of our superb Maori MBA graduates and several PhD graduates, and they seem to have few issues finding very challenging roles in business.
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    · 5 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Im recognised internationally in my field but not in NZ was never given any chance to get a lectureship etc whereas others with less were offered the work, I am told I am a good lecturerer and should be working in that field but no one will employ and I am not alone in that..but at my age now I have lost hope as I am now fast being regarded as too old as well so I cant win aye? I am in the community though too Jens and I have seen the result of unemployment in the form of suicides, mental health relapses and psychosis and my entire whanau except me moving to Oz to get the jobs they cant get in NZ
    Like · Reply · 5 hours ago
    Alison Withers You only have to read his profile to see where his loyalties lie. Nuf said.
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    · 5 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Oh and Jens it was Waikato University who shafted me after my PhD was complete and I taught in management school wth 99% of my Asian students saying I made them do critical thinking in a way they finally understood and where before they didnt like essays by the end of my lessons they all grew academically and with good critical thinking in both contract law and business ethics
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    · 5 hours ago
    Kane Davis " I know many assimilated Maori MBA graduates and several assimilated PhD graduates, and they seem to have few issues finding very challenging roles in "our" system.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Witi TeHaara yes makes u wonder richest an poorest BLOOD DIAMOND GEE
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    · 4 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Kane, I don't think it is appropriate to insult Maori because they have achieved academically what you have not.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Huhana, that doesn't sound right at all. We are desperately short of effective business school teachers.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago via mobile
    Kane Davis What happenend to my right to an opinion?....
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis Look up Kupapa , Jens, Google it.
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    Jens Mueller Opinions do not include slander
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago via mobile
    Kane Davis You'd try teach a fish to breathe under water and think you're helping it.
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    Kane Davis Hahhaha!!! Slander? Where? Hahahhaa!
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Warrick Wok Brown how is stating the opinion that some Maori graduates have assimilated slander?
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    · 4 hours ago
    Lance McC "will of Parliament" what about the "will of the people"
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis An opinion is anything that comes from me . Anything you wanna call it is your opinion, i call it a progression of the evolution of expressive consciousness.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis I'm all for academic achievement. After all whos gonna listen to a Maori without it?
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    · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis Funny how clever and stupid educated people can be.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis The very people that rule the world, cleverly stupid.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller So why would you denigrate educated Maori? They go through an incredibly journey of breaking away from a much easier life they could have in their whanau and make superb sacrifices to learn and educate themselves, for the betterment of their people.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Lance McC a degree in what ever, does not mean a person is either educated or intelligent. just the same as a lack of one or an inability to spell well etc does not indicate the opposite.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Robertdavid Burnett ithink jens is quite onto it ...blunt way of saying things..but not quite racist..yet.....
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller I spend a considerable amount of my time, as a donation, to help Maori leaders become more effective, and I take no joy in seeing their own people try to drag them back with such polemic arguments that are purely emotional and intended to hold back progress from which all maori could benefit.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Lance, this isn't about a specific degree. This is about advancing a cause, and you can only do that if you understand how to craft, sell and then implement an argument. Talking about Maori being aggrieved or disadvantaged is cheap and sensational, but getting onto your bike and doing something about it is where the true action lies.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago · Edited
    Kane Davis You need a serious history lesson Jens. You've walked into a trilogy and you're watching the end of the last movie asking someone to catch you up on the first two.Question , are you from here?
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    · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Well it is Jens, I then moved to Auckland for better opportunties only to now be stuck in a cycle of poverty. I am a human rights lawyer by choice but yes would teach other topics as requried as for being assimilated well I am an indigenous rights lawyer which makes it even more specific so it makes it very hardw to find work although it doesnt mean I dont do other things I have done family law, business law etc but I dont practice now as its too expensive and cant afford it. So I research when I can and stay close to my community so I stay informed and real. i havent lost sight of community. I left Waikato because of alleged discrimination at law school Jens, it was an abusive environment that has sme people who go on the attack when a wahine with a brain is there also as for law firms, they dont generally like to employ disabled I have been told directly by them on that too, so in a catch 22 really.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago · Edited
    Lance McC i find it funny that if you can do something very well and have a massive knowledge on the subject (like say computing or digital art etc) but do not have a degree from university because you are self taught and did not have the time or money to go to university, then according to employers (and often other people) you are uneducated and unskilled and can not do that sort of work. But if you have a degree but do not really know what you are doing or how to do that sort of work, you are educated. I have taught many university graduates how to do what they went to university to learn and got a degree in and got 'educated', yet i am the one not 'educated' and very unlikely to get a job working for someone else (not myself) in the field these degree qualified people are working in even though thaey really know nothing.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey I agree Lance a degree is no measure of intelligence at all, I know many learning disabled all regarded as dumb who show more intelligence than some so called scholars
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Lance, no one will ever argue with ability, and it makes no difference to me if you learned at uni or from a Malaysian Tree Frog, but learned you must have.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Huhana, that does sound odd indeed. Our law school has one of the highest Maori participation rates, and nearly all of our Maori graduates are snapped up before they even finish their studies... There must be something else going on here that interfered.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Lance McC other thing i find crazy is the way people take about the Treaty of Waitangi being this countries founding document. It is not. The founding document is the one that declared Aotearoa to be an independent nation and was ratified by one of the biggest/greatest empires of the time (England). That document is the Declaration Of Independence, fives years before the treaty.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis @ Lance , the qualified person gets the job because if he makes a mistake while practicing, its a qualified mistake. The world we live in.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey I am one Maori lawyer Kane who is taking on the Govt, and so is Annette, we may do it differently but why do you think I cant get a government job? I challenge them too much and for that there is a penalty
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Well, look, to be reasonable. If you attack the very institution you then ask for a job, you are not making yourself the ideal candidate, including loyalty and fidelity to your employer, are you? Let's not get totally nuts here. If I had an applicant come and ask me for a job and in the same breath tell me they hate everything I do, I'd cut that interview real short. And, speaking purely as a lawyer, there is absolutely a demand for good lawyers in NZ.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Lance McC yep he is qualified to be an idiot and a qualified mistake is ok. Look at a lot of our laws, or if a investment banker makes a 'mistake' that is ok nevermind the damage it does.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Not Maori disabled Jens, I was the first Maori woman to get a PhD in law there and the. First disabled person there to get my LLB, LLm (dist) and PhD in Law and tikanga Maori, they did not want me there even my chief supervisor conceded there was discrimination against me it almost destroyed me at the time I had to transfer to the SMPD where I was fully supported until I graduated. no the law school may as you say but its akso abusive if you challenge a certain Maori male at rhe law school he will attack you until he gets rid of you, I had to take him to human rights during my studies and since then I was targeted,
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Lance, the Treaty superceded the Declaration and thus subsumes it.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey anyway not prepared to say anymore about it
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller So those financial company leaders who are now sitting inn jail should not have been jailed?
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis Definately Hahana. Beautiful. I would've loved to be , do just that. Maybe change your name to Susanna Hickey? Please i'm not trying be funny.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Lance McC never said anything about telling an employer i hate everything about them, you made that up
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Look Huhana, I can appreciate you are aggrieved, but there is clearly much more to the story than your side. In one breath you are describing your superb credentials in the other you voice strongly held anti-institutional beliefs., and some disablements clearly affect performance more than others, so this is a debate we cannot really have as we don't have both sides of the story, do we?
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Its ok my legal name is Susan, my Maori name was a taonga given to me by a long passed kuia at Parihaka who taught me more about myself than my own whanau so even the name doesnt make a difference Kane, they see me, they dont want to know
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Lance, this was directed at Huhana who says she cannot get a Government job because she argues the Government is not working.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Lance McC loyalty is a 2 way street, employers see no need now days to be loyal to staff no matter how loyal they have been to the employer.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Jens Mueller That is a huge generalization that certainly does not do credit to those many employers who create an engaged work force by being collaborativelv and inclusive. You need a much bigger soap box so that facts don't ruin your story...
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    · 4 hours ago
    Cliff Royal Jens, incorrect, first in time , best in law, Te Tiriti was an amendment.Queen Victoria did not have the jurisdiction and or authority to over ride a prior sovereigns edicts. Regardless , Maoridom has Te Whakaputunga & Te Tiriti & Te Ture Whenua Maori, Maori Land Act 93 since amended. Review the pre amble. What exactly do those 3rd party interlopers residing in Poneke have as a basis, evidencing their presumption??? diddly squat. Under contractual law, only Principals , hereditary heirs and successors to those signatories of Te Whakaputunga & Te Tiriti have any authority to comment on such matters ( Im one ) anyone else may be deemed an interloper.
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    · 4 hours ago · Edited
    Lance McC Sounds like Jens is a supporter of the racist antiMāori John Ansell http://johnansell.wordpress.com/
    John Ansell
    johnansell.wordpress.com
    Truth matters
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    · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Jens what you are hearing is years of working with government as an advisor only to be shat on so no its not the full story as you see it, and there is more to it, I challenge what is wrong, i acknowledge what is right but will alwys challenge abuses against other humans. No its not the full story but I will argue its not working for disabled Maori who are identified as the most deprived and marginalised of all groups in NZ by policy decisions, and discrimination from Maori and non Maori both so its much more complex than any facebook conversation.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey Jens all the mahi I am given is completed to a high standard and only affected by a lack of resourcing, I pick up what work I can and my reputation around my work is that it is good work. how I do the work is arnd my disability, I need flexible environments thats all but my work is always done, on time and its good work
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    · 4 hours ago · Edited
    Sue Murray @ Jens Mueller I am so glad that you are not my friend on FB or in real life :-(
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    · 4 hours ago
    Huhana Hickey I have to agree with Cliff Royal, we never did cede sovereignty and the declaration in line with the Treaty has relevance.
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    · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis Go getem Cliff.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Lance McC yep. Declaration Of Independence is the first document, and the one that founded the country and was acknowledged by the Queen , therefore Aotearoa was recognized as an independent country, 5 years later a treaty was formed with NO input from Māori as to the wording or content, for trade reasons. The Declaration Of Independence also staed that Māori would make the laws, yet the British stopped that from happening and imported their own laws.
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Cliff Royal King William 1V :)
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    · 4 hours ago
    Kane Davis I like you Cliff, here we go!!
    Like · Reply · 4 hours ago
    Cliff Royal more like King Bluff:)
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    · 3 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Ok, so what do you suggest as a practical way forward?
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Kane Davis Jens gapped it when you turned up Cliffy.
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago
    Kane Davis Acknowledgement of the declaration of Indepence.
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago
    Lance McC I see Jens works for Waikato Universiy Management school and works for "Governments worldwide" http://www.penneylaneonline.com/2012/04/23/jens-mueller-associate-professor-at-waikato-management-school-company-director/
    Jens Mueller: Associate Professor at Waikato Management School, Company Director
    www.penneylaneonline.com
    Jens Mueller provides professional services to leaders, entities and Governments...See More
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago
    Jens Mueller And what would that acknowledgment d
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Do?
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Lance McC Just making sure people are aware your loyalty is with "Governments worldwide" not the New Zealand people or even New Zealand at all.
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    · 3 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Yes, Lance, and since this is on my profile here I wouldn't give up my day job yet and become a sleuth, if I were you...
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    MissLoral Lee Can you not prove unextinguishable native title Annette? c'mon....
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    Lance McC no intention of doing so. a least i am not resorting to petty insults
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    · 3 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Where's your sense of humour?
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Kiri Tipene myt have to get another judge looks like hes siding with the govt b4 the case even starts
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    · 3 hours ago
    Lance McC interesting that people called out for insulting others then say "where's your sense of humour?" as if insaulting people is funny
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    · 3 hours ago
    Jens Mueller I thought this was very funny and not insulting at all
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Most employers understand well that an engaged work force is more productive. Its simple math!
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Lance McC I also see that your zero knowledge of New Zealand history is likely the reason you think the situation of Māori today is funny. you think the way Māori were treated should be just treated as a big joke and everyone should move on and ignore the fact that Māori were denied their right to govern this country as stated in the Declaration Of Independence. You are not even a New Zealander or read or understood any New Zealand history yet you think you know what is best for the savages, when actually you are looking at the issue from the angle that white european races are superior to any other and anything bad they did in the past should be forgotten and we should move. this is part of your genetic disposition to think that dark skinned peoples are savages and should never have a say in running their own country. This idea did not go well for Germans that thought this way 70 years ago.
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago
    Kevin Garland No the simple Math is profits before people..!!
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    · 3 hours ago
    Jens Mueller No, Kevin, that is a very short term approach and not at all sustainable
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Lance, they must have made a mistake then when they printed up a NZ passport for me, oh my!
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller I have never heard a Maori refer to themselves as savages. What a disgrace!
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Kevin Garland Jens how long you been in NZ..?? you obviously have no idea on how the infrastructure of business in NZ work.
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    · 3 hours ago
    Lance McC British refereed to them as savages, read some history. Re passport, getting citizenship is not the same as born in New Zealand especially when you claim "Frankfurt, Germany" as your "Hometown" hometown indicates place you were born and brought up.
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    · 3 hours ago
    Marewa Oterangi There is very little about the New Zealand propaganda machine that has any democratic principles attached to it.
    Giving people five minutes every four years to tick boxes beside the names of people they do not trust is nothing but a posturing sham.
    There is no freedom in New Zealand, it is a Police State, supported by a mega-dollar propaganda machine designed to keep the congregation believing they have it sweet, when all we are doing is making it sweet for those who do not deserve it.
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    · 3 hours ago
    Marewa Oterangi just added that in the discussion..interesting discussion it is too.. moreover the fact that as said already..one million people decided for whatever reason not to vote last election... reasons being varied...!
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    · 3 hours ago
    Jens Mueller 20 years, Irvin
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Thanks, Lance, I didn't know there were two classes of citizens here, sad to gear that.
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Marewa. We vote every 3 years, not 4.
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago via mobile
    Lance McC so not really a New Zealander, not born here.
    Like · Reply · 3 hours ago
    Marewa Oterangi oops sent it in too quickly..yes three..mistake but you get the gist!
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Kevin Garland Jens i guess growing up and coming from a former Nazi regime who had to live under an MMP system put their by the United Nations to stop dictators like Hitler from ever forming another Government in your country ever again and which doesn't help your cause or educate you in a democratic society like ours.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Jens Mueller So Maori born overseas are not real?
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
    Kevin Garland Whats Maori born overseas got to do with this thread..??
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Marewa Oterangi We do not live in a democracy, we live in an elected oligarchy, if we lived in a democracy, everyone would have an equal say in their rights, which is far from the case.
    We are currently governed by a Party that has only 30% of the population in it's support. There is absolutely nothing democratic about that, it is the rich controlling the poor, forcing legislation that is oppressive upon those who least deserve it.

    Anyone who believes that New Zealand is a democracy has been brainwashed as to the meaning of the word. ( less than 30 percent now to be honest )
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    · 2 hours ago
    Kevin Garland It was a figure of speech Marewa.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Lance McC " didn't know there were two classes of citizens here" shows you know nothing looking down from your tower of wealth that protects you from the real world and means you can avoid the poor and oppressed. We have the same 3 classes england has always had, very wealth, middle class and poor. the wealthy work hard to keep the poor at that level, poor. The wealthy are more inclined to consider Māori as different because of their races than middle classes or the poor.

    A Māori born in say England is still a Māori by blood, if they are aware of their culture and language you could even say they are culturally Māori. But they are not white european englishmen. It is who you whakapapa to, not just where you were born. But the point i made is you are not born in New Zealand, so no matter what the passport you bought as a wealthy businessman wanting to work at a New Zealand university to brainwash New Zealanders into thinking like Germans, you are not a New Zealander, you do not know anything about New Zealand history or involved culturally. your loyalties are to your country of birth were your ancestors were also born (the country and people you whakapapa to).
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Marewa Oterangi pai ana tera! Maori as tangata whenua should have the say in what is rightfully ours lore...however laws designed beyond our Tupuna have been entrenched into this parliamentary system ..ad nauseum..whether Maori are at the "table" or not...so if people are not going to vote... what is the alternative .was the point of the comments posted ....nga mihi kia koutou katoa...! other than Jens pointing out my earlier "figure 4" error...aroha mai ( lol)
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Lance McC yep, it is interesting that the Declaration of Independence stated Māori would come together once a year to makes laws, but the British stopped that ever happening. Māori have never been allowed to created any laws for this country or have any great input the laws of this country. Māori MPs may have put some laws into the ballot box, but have never made the laws as stated in the Declaration of Independence or even close to it.
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    Jens Mueller Gee, I am not even in the highest tax bracket, so once I'll get wealthy, I look forward to getting all these benefits you talk about.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller I am amazed at these cheap generalizations you throw out. It seems so argumentative without any specific foundations.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller What a shocker to declare a new class of citizens because they were not born on the soil, which would deny all overseas born Maori your first class citizenship. What an insult.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
    Lance McC So you say the Declaration of Independence is not a specific foundation? you need to read New Zealand history. Start by reading the Declaration of Independence. Then look at have we ever had a Māori priminister? no. have we ever had a parliament made up of 75% maori MPs? no, never mind the fact that our parliament has never been 100% Māori MPs/rangatira/chiefs as stated/promised in the Declaration of Independence. these are undisputed facts.

    I only stated 3 classes of people, Wealthy, middle class, and poor. Also a person is either born here, or not born here, or born elsewhere of New Zealand born parents. you are not born here and have no ancestors born her so therefore you are not a New Zealander. You may hold a New Zealand passport, but that could actualuy be taken off you by immigration if they had good cause to bane you from the country, this can not be done to a person born in New Zealand.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Kevin Garland Ae tika tau, ko te Maori lore te mea nui,engari i tango ake mai i nga pakeha kuare, me huri ke i te pakeha Law no nga kawanatanga i te timatatanga tae noa ki enei ra, and yes if people dont vote then they should'nt complain, but that will never happen either, and Donkey and his henchmen would be happy with that knowing that many of our people are not voting, which means less votes for Hone or the Maori Party. Mauri ora...
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Lance McC National put a lot of effort into making sure those that are likely to vote against them (ie the poor). This is done mostly by taking away hope, and giving the poor the feeling their vote does not count. figures show that if every perosn that can vote turned up and voted each time, National would never get back into power.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Jens Mueller National is in power because Maori support them, not because if a system deficiency.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago via mobile
    Kevin Garland Not all Maori support them Jens, your a dreamer mate..!!
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Lance McC Correct Kevin, very few Māori support National compared to say Greens, Mana, Labour. Even The Māori Party is loosing support because of their actions re supporting National.
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Kevin Garland Many Maori get confused on who to vote for, many dont trust politicians and their rhetorical policies and many just cant be bothered.
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    Kiri Tipene wata krok of shit jens u sound like a businessman who votes for national, oh u are typical maybe u should try walking in other peoples shoes or fully understand a culture b4 you comment about them,
    Like · Reply · 2 hours ago
    Jens Mueller Well, if you believe voters need to be educated then you are able to do so and should do. No one stops you.
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago via mobile
    Kiri Tipene and we have to listen to a lakky like you, u dont have to be educated to vote, just need to see the big picture, which in my opinion is how can you trust a govt who dont listen to the people, thats i support mana party koz they listen and help
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago
    Lance McC interesting thing is that Māori have different expectations from their MPs. Big amoung these is the idea that an MP (no matter what party) votes in parliament, for what the people (majority thereof) want (true representation of the people of his area), not what the party he/she belongs to tells him to vote. This is not the normal way of voting in parliament now, most noticeably with National. Example, Hamilton has 2 National MPs, but these MPs always support things the people do not. They do not find out what the people want in any way, they vote the way John Key tells them to. On the other hand, a Māori MP following more traditional ways of representing his people will consult with his people before voting.
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago
    Lance McC He tika to kōrero a Kiri
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago
    Kevin Garland Because many cant be "BOTHERED" where as the rest of us who do vote keep up with the play, as the saying goes "Keep your friends close (the people, the voters) but keep your enemy's closer" (the national party) our people are aware of them and the damage they can do and have already done.
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago
    Kevin Garland Incidently Jens, should'nt you be back in your "OWN" country helping your "OWN GOVERNMENT" and Angela Merkal your german chancellor put a gun to Greece's head, before greece sends the EU in to a spiralling landslide in to oblivion and ruin all the worlds economies.
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago
    Jens Mueller How do you know that I am not part of formulating strategies on that area?
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago via mobile
    Jens Mueller Yes, I share your concern that we have too few voters that bother about an election outcome. That issue needs to be addressed
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago via mobile
    Hona O Denise In neo-liberal thinking, the term rights has an arbitrary value related to personality. Hon Key knows already.
    Like · Reply · about an hour ago
    Jens Mueller Thanks, Kevin, but contrary to the earlier discriminatory suggestion that we should value citizens differently based on where they are born, I quite consider NZ to be my "own" country...
    Like · Reply · 49 minutes ago via mobile

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